Our Religions

Correspondence between Shlomoh and Internet friends - March, 2008

From: "Jerald Gould" <jagcgb@hotmail.com>
To: "Sherman, Shlomoh" <kingsolnew@yahoo.com>
Subject: The Great Paradox
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 01:41:36 -0400

Hello Shlomoh :

As I had to highlite all this, everything has come out in one color  & her answers were seemingly entwined in yours. I've tried to separate them the best I could . I hope this will enable you to make out her reply. Please let me know how you feel about what she's said . I noticed that [exorthodoxjews] accompanied an  email to her, so perhaps she got your reply to me from there ?

Also much  thanks for your last email. Jerald .

My thoughts in purple to kingsolnew's remarksþ
From: suzanneu@aol.com Sent: March 23, 2008 11:19:26 PM
To:  jagcgb@hotmail.com

This was sent to me.  I do not know if I am welcome to post since I am not part of the group and I am a gentile.  Please don't be offended, but I answered the post with answers culled from many years of study.  My background is that I am a Grandmother, married 40+ yrs to my husband, whom I love, and I teach the Jewish root of Christianity to gentiles and encourage them to study Torah, obey G-d and keep the Feasts.  G-d bless you.   

-----Original Message-----

To: SuzanneU@aol.com
Sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:14 pm
Subject: Fwd: [exorthodoxjews] Re: Hal Lindsey's Article

From: kingsolnew@yahoo.com
Reply-to: exorthodoxjews@yahoogroups.com
To: jagcgb@hotmail.com
Sent: 3/21/2008 10:14:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: [exorthodoxjews] Re: Hal Lindsey&apos;s Article

Jerald Gould  wrote:
As a most interested Jew , I would like to know how you would answer this article by Hal Lindsay?
Respectfully, Jerald Gould .

My response to the absurd statements below.
[no one has] "affected the life of  man on this earth as much as that one, solitary life."

Jesus the Nazarene affected the lives of relatively few people, mostly the Galileans among whom he lived and taught. Actually in Acts of the Apostles 6:7 it says The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becomng obedient to the faith. In fact, according to Eusebius, who listed them in one of his works, the first 15 Bishops of Jerusalem were JEWISH. For a brief spell, if you can call a "brief spell" 2,000 years! ;-) his name and fame began to be spread out among the Jews of the diaspora and among potential gentile converts. However, after the cataclysmic year 70ce, most Jews who had been his followers tuned away from him.

Her reply--Not so. Many of them left Jerusalem when they saw Titus' army coming because of Y'shua's warning to not even go into the house to get one's coat but to leave. Thus many Jews at the time who did not believe in Y'shua were angered and thought these people abandoned them to fight it out alone.

Actually if you get the book FAMOUS HEBREW CHRISTIANS by Jacob Garthaus, it gives a synopsis of how over the centuries from 70 AD through 1900 there were many Jewish people who believed in Y'shua. At one point it was estimated at 1 in 3It's true that after the year 70ce, two mythic figures arose who took the name Jesus and became icons in two religious sects, the Nazarenes and the Christians. But neither of these sects were followers of Jesus the Nazarene, the real man. The Nazarenes believed in an idealized figure of Jesus as a superhuman king who would return to earth to be kingof Israel. Actually being that they wee so close to the time of Y'shua, they believed that He was the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53/Messiah ben Yosef and that He would return someday as Messiah ben David as per Zech 12:10.

Christians believed in a completely mythologized figure called Chist who was not Jesus "after the flesh". The Gospel According to Matthew contains an encapsulated set of teachings [Sermon On The Mount], supposedly spoken by the actual Jesus. These teachings have very little impact on the lives of people.

Her reply---This is absolutely not true.  Most people who call themselves Christians concentrate more on how Christ can save them fom hell than on the Sermon On the Mount.I don't know what type of people you have met but they are not representative of true Christians. "He never commanded an army, yet his teachings have captured the hearts of mankind for more than 2,000 years."

No, Jesus the Nazarene never had an army. His teachings have absolutely NOT captured the hearts of humanity.In the places where they have been proclaimed they have.  Sad though that there are people who are opportunistic and have misused His Name.  In the name of someone called Jesus Christ [not the actual Jesus], the Roman army imposed and enforced a hatefull religion on defenseless tribes and provinces.

Her reply--You are so right here.

Truly the REAL Jesus wasn't at all like that. Later, independent kings did the same with their helpless subjects. Whenever these subjects reverted to their original religious practices, the priests of the so-called Prince of Peace tortured and killed them. Here is a prime example of people claiming that which they are not.

The rest of the populance then submitted to the so-called Jesus Christ out of fear. It is estimated that many people would have converted to Judaism instead of Christianity. But from the time that the Roman Emperor Constantine allowed the priests of Christ to call the shots, they made sue that the Jews were focibly silenced from speaking to nonJews.

Her reply--That TRULY was tragic and a horrible thing for both Jews and Gentiles who love their Jewish friends/family.

So much did the priests of Christ fear the Jews that they quarantined them, terrorized them, and killed them - to stop people from learning about the Jewish religion. Don't forget too that during the Spanish Inquisition, this happened to millions of non-Catholic Christians. In Christendom, conversion to Judaism carried the death sentence.

Her reply--As it also did many times when Jews converted to faith in Y'shua---St. Stephen was the first martyr and Paul viciously persecuted the Jewish believers until he met Y'shua on the Damascus Road.

Jesus captured no one's heart.

Her reply--Au contraire.  He has captured the hearts of many millions of people since 30 AD.

Christian priests captured Europe and some parts of the Eastern Hemisphere, using real live soldiers and police men.

"There are many paradoxes about Jesus. But perhaps the greatest is what a Jewish prophet named Isaiah predicted about him 750 years before he was born."

Using verses from the Jewish Bible, witten centuries before there was a Jesus, to prove that Jesus was the messiah, is such a pathetic ploy since historically these so-called messianic prophecies had nothing to do with the conversion of 99% of people to the religion of Christ.

Her reply--Where do you get this figure?

It is a meaningless gesture except that it fullfills a need in people who are already believers. It gives them a pseudo-historical crutch-like base to lean on for their belief system. Verses do not convert people.

Her reply--Actually the Word of G-d is powerful to change lives if people will only read it.  If one does not want to read the New Testament, that is fine.Then read Tanakh from beginning to end AND obey!

Emotional crises do (convert people). Verses sometimes serve as the icing on the cake already bitten into. They confirm the decision to become Christian; they do not provoke the decision.

Her reply--I have known many people through the years who have been convicted of their sin and their need for atonement/forgiveness by only hearing one Bible verse or by seeing one Bible verse in a greeting card or on a billboard.

"It is an undeniable fact that the calendar by which the civilized world  marks the passage of time dates to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth."

The calendar used by the Western World was also forced on the entire world when Europe rose to the position of technological mastery ...

Her reply--He may mean that A.D. means Anno Domini.  The Jewish calendar should still be the one we use for Christianity, but unfortunately that is not the case though some of us are going back to it.

... and created a Christian Empire throughout the world. The Christian calendar does not date from the birth of Jesus the Nazarene. The birthdate of Jesus the Christ was arbitrarily chosen by Christian calculation the way the birthday of the universe was also chosen by Jews, using a chronology based on mythic events.
This calendar wasd imposed on the Roman Empire by the priests of Christ, and later imposed on the rest of the world.

Her reply--Luke gives the chronology. Zacharias was ministering during the course of Abijah which would have been around Shavuot or roughly around June 20 on our calendar.  He had to finish, go back to his home, and Elisabeth had to visit the mikveh. She conceived and 6 months later Miriam was visited by the angel to announce that she would bear Y'shua who, as the Angel said "Will save his people from their sins."  That made Y'shua's birth come during Sukkot.  As John said "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt (tabernacled) among us."  HOWEVER...Y'shua WAS CONCEIVED during Hanukkah.  He is our Shammash and He is the Light to the Nations.  Isaiah 42:6 and 49:6. "today he is the central figure of the human race.".

Jesus the Nazarene is the central figure of nothing.

Her reply--- Not true.  While He is not on the radar of many in the world, there are 54 million Christians in China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China and millions in India and in Africa, and a growing number in other nations too.  Christ is the central figure of Christendom.

He is not the central figure in the lives of millions of Moslems, Hindus, Jews, Buhddists, Shintoists, and people of other assorted religious societies.

Suzanne quoted from:
History's greatest paradox
By Hal  Lindsey
Posted: March 21, 2008 1:00 am Eastern
© 2008

Throughout Western culture, today is known as "Good Friday." Christians commemorate this as the day on which Jesus Christ gave His life as payment for the sins of mankind on a hill outside ancient Jerusalem. The hill was called Golgotha – "the place of the skull."

Jesus was born in a stable in an obscure village named Bethlehem. He grew up in another obscure village known as Nazareth. He never traveled more than about 200 miles from His birthplace. He was not known beyond Nazareth until He began His public career. And that public career only lasted three short years.

His profession, prior to what he called his life calling of saving men from their sin, was a carpenter. During his life, He never ran for public office, yet hundreds of millions have followed Him over two millennia. He never wrote a book, yet hundreds of thousands have been written about Him. He never became the patriarch of a family, yet untold millions consider themselves His children. From the time he began publicly teaching, he never had a house. He was never formally educated, yet He confounded the most brilliant sages of His time. He never commanded an army, yet his teachings have captured the hearts of mankind for more than 2,000 years.

In short, none of the characteristics associated with some of the greatest men of history such as Pharaoh Ramesses II, Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, Cyrus the Great of Persia, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Fredrick the Great, Charlemagne, etc., are associated with Jesus.

(Column continues below)

At the end of his earthly life, some believed that He was the long-awaited Messiah that Israel's prophets predicted would come. But the religious leaders of Israel condemned Him as a false prophet and a blasphemer on the grounds that He claimed to be the Son of God, thus making himself equal with God. So Jesus was condemned for claiming to be exactly what the Hebrew prophets predicted the true Messiah would be.

When the religious leaders forced the Roman governor to try him for promoting the overthrow of Roman rule, the governor, Pontius Pilate, officially declared that he found no fault in him.

As He stood before His accusers, even the men that he chose as his apostles deserted him.

At his execution, only his mother, his aunt, a disciple named Mary Magdalene and the Apostle John remained with him till the end.

Humanly speaking, there is nothing about Jesus that explains the fact that, 20 centuries after His birth, He stands as the most influential figure who ever existed in human history.

The one event that changed it all was this. Jesus hurled a challenge at His bitterest enemies that what He claimed and taught would be proven true when He would be raised bodily from the dead on the third day.

His cowering and disillusioned disciples suddenly became bold as lions and fearlessly proclaimed that they were witnesses to the fact that they saw him bodily alive after the third day. More than 500 of Jesus' followers were immediately transformed and never changed their witness to the fact that they saw Him bodily alive and talked and ate with Him. Most of these suffered terrible martyr's deaths. But not one recanted of his witness.

As someone eloquently summed up the paradox of Jesus' life in a poem called "One Solitary Life," "… Twenty centuries have come and gone, and today he is the central figure of the human race. I am well within the mark when I say that all the armies that have ever marched, all the navies that ever sailed, all the parliaments that ever sat, all the Kings that ever reigned – put together – have not affected the life of man on this earth as much as that one, solitary life."

It is an undeniable fact that the calendar by which the civilized world marks the passage of time dates to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. Even though Jews and Muslims use a different calendar, they still have to deal daily with the BC/AD calendar.

There are many paradoxes about Jesus. But perhaps the greatest is what a Jewish prophet named Isaiah predicted about him 750 years before he was born. Note that all through this prophecy Isaiah uses the pronouns "we" and "us," which could only refer to Isaiah's own people, the Israelites. So the suffering servant here could not be a poetic symbol of Israel as a nation, since the servant dies for Israel.

Isaiah predicted,

Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
And they made His grave with the wicked –
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth. [Isaiah 53:1-9 NKJ]

Could any paradox be greater?

Hal Lindsey is the best-selling non-fiction writer alive today. Among his 20 books are "Late Great Planet Earth," his follow-up on that explosive best seller, Planet Earth: The Final Chapter," and "Everlasting Hatred: The Roots of Jihad." He writes this weekly column exclusively for WorldNetDaily. Be sure to visit his website, where he provides up-to-the-minute analysis of today's world events in the light of ancient prophecies.

To: kingsolnew@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: about our religions Part 2aolaPA
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 11:02:12 -0400
From: suzanneu@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Shlomoh Sherman <kingsolnew@yahoo.com>
To: suzanneu@aol.com
Sent: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 9:50 am
Subject: Re: about our religions Part 2

What Paul actually meant here is that if you are circumcised as but are not living for G-d and your heart is not right before Him, your circumcision does not get you into Heaven.  He never meant that Jews should abandon circumcision.  

"your heart is not right before Him" is open to interpretation. If you are talking about KAVANNAH or if Paul was speaking of KAVANNAH, then we Jews strongly differ with Christians on this issue,which is an important issue. The Talmudic dictum, MITSVOT do not require KAVANNAH rules our lives. The rabbis asked, "If a Jew does an outwardly good deed or follows some commandment, whether a CHOK or MISHPAT, but his KAVANNAH on a particular occaision  is not into it, is the act valid?" The answer is a resounding "YES". Since we cannot know what is in the heat of another, we can only judge his deeds. The ONLY time that KAVANNA affects a deed is when it is NEGATIVE KAVANNAH, the person actually says something like,
"I denounce o renounce this deed or MITSVAH."

However it was still "faith" plus "works" not just works/mitzvot that James said was needed. "Faith without works is dead. You show me your faith and I will show you my works."   So faith in Torah, plus obedience to G-d was required.  Remember, Shlomo, the Apostles were quite knowledgeable about the Oral Law of their time and the Biblical doctrines they taught were based upon that.  What has happened once the church became overrun with gentiles who didn't understand that is an entirely different matter.  That is sad for sure.

He had Timothy circumcised because Timothy's Mom was Jewish.  Titus was not circumcised.  He was a Greek, did not plan to live in the land of israel.  AND the point is also that one did not need to be circumcised as a Gentile not living in the land to become attached as a ger to the Jewish community, nor did one need to be circumcised ie make a full conversion to Judaism to become a believer in Y'shua.

Isn€™t it interesting therefore that most men in America are now circumcised, and that the practice of circumcision is growing world wide, and that the UN Is mandating circumcision for the whole world since it helps prevent certain disease in women and men?

Yes.  Well somehow it was determined that it was a health benefit and with the STD crisis that has been somewhat proven.

If you are saved by Christ, you cannot do anything to please God, including keeping commandments. They are a waste of time to a saved person. Actually that is not what Biblical Christian faith says.  That is something that has been mistaught, but the NT teaches us to keep the Commandments.  Y'shua Himself said "If you love Me, keep my Commandments. He who keeps them and teaches others to keep them will be great in the kingdom of Heaven but he who breaks them and teaches others to break them will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven.  

Then which commandments are we speaking of since for most of Christianity's history, keeping commandments have been looked down on? Didn't Martin Luther want to get rid of the Epistle of James?

According to Orthodox Judaism, any gentile who attempts to observe the Jewish Sabbath is punished by the Sanhedrin. LOL I didn't know that.  That teaching might have come as a backlash at Christianity especially since Constantine because in the Edict of Milan it was stated that Christians could not use unleavened bread, celebrate Passover, and keep the feasts.

No, that's not it. What happened is that after the destruction of the Temple and the rise of Christianity, many gentiles feigned conversion or actually did conversion to Judaism in order to spy on Jews for the Roman Empire. Therefore the Jewish leaders said that any gentile who practices MITSVOT such as SHABBAT in order to spy should be put to death. But since no one would be sure why the gentile would be observing SHABBAT at a time when it was unpopular to be a Jew, it might be for spying. Later the original reason was forgotten.

Interesting. It makes sense. But if it was forgotten, how did you find out about it?

It is very true though that I love Israel, the nation and I love the Jewish people.  If I didn't I would not pray so often for them nor would my husband I have given donations to help Israel's citizens who are in need.

That's very commendable. I know many people who do that. It may come as a surprise to you that after the Six Day War, Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor gave MILLIONS to Israel, and lead a Hollywood drive to collect funds for Israel. Actually one of Burton's  grandfathers back in Wales was Jewish.

I knew that Elizabeth Taylor was Jewish but didn't know that about Richard Burton.  There are a LOT of people worldwide who have some Jewish ancestors.  Did G-d not promise Abraham that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky?  And since we have seen photos taken by Hubble telescope we surely know that there are way more stars than we could see with telescopes on earth.

I would venture to proclaim that the\Christian messiah is no longer a Jew, but according to John, a pre-existing LOGOS who came unto his own and his own received him not. However, John realized, I am sure, that there is a term in Judaism called MEMRA which is what LOGOS is in the Greek.  

John knew  of the concept of the MEMRA but this comes from Jewish mysticism and many concepts from Jewish mysticism, which never were part of mainstream Jewish life,  became major motifs in Christianity

Jewish sod teachings were in place many centuries before kaballah was developed.  It goes to show how educated John was in Judaism and the Rabbinic thoughts and teachings.

Y'shua was born a Jew, lived and died a Torah-Observant Jew.  

No one denies that, and James and Peter maintained that anyone recognizing Jesus as messiah should fully convert to Judaism.

That is not correct.  Peter had a vision before going to Cornelius home, in which he saw unclean animals and G-d told him "What I call clean do not call unclean" so he went to see Cornelius.  However at that time when he preached, the Holy Spirit came upon these Romans when they believed in Y'shua.  Peter had them immersed but it says nowhere that they went through circumcision.

But when Paul came along and made declarations that gentiles could become followers of Jesus without becoming Jews, he created a new Jesus and a new religion which had very little to do with Jews.

This is also not correct.  Paul didn't create a new Jesus or a new religion. If you read Acts, Paul went to the synagogues first and preached Y'shua as the Messiah and after being driven OUT he went then to the Gentiles in the city.  Remember too, Messianic expectation was high at the time of Y'shua because it was known that it was decreed by Daniel the prophet that 483 years would pass from the decree of Cyrus till Messiah came.  That time came and went by the time Paul was preaching but he was able to show how Y'shua fulfilled the prophecies. So Paul was preaching that Y'shua was indeed the Messiah.

Once you tell people that their king is Jewish and observes the TORAH, BUT that they don't have to follow suit, what are you saying that makes any kind of sense. Even in agreeing to the 3 conditions imposed by James, Paul never kept his word.

That, Shlomo, was not done by Paul.  It was done by "early church (step) fathers."  Wolves that came in and ravaged the flock as Paul himself warned would happen after he was dead.  Paul himself kept the Torah.  He even took men to the Temple who had taken a Nazarite vow and he helped them. ALL the Apostles who lived in Jerusalem went to the Temple morning and late afternoon for the OLAH offering, at the risk of their lives.  Would people who had tossed out the Torah bother to do that?  No.

It is a sad thing that so much misteaching and misunderstanding took place and that it has gone on so long.  Perhaps though it had to be this way once Y'shua was crucified, because down through the centuries millions of people needed to be born.  Only in eternity will we have all the answers as to "why".  I have my thoughts on the matter, but the Bible is silent on this as far as I can see.

For your prophet says, Even if I ever knew Jesus after the flesh, I know him so no more.

I have never read that ANY writer in the NT said something like this.   Would you please give me the book, chapter and verse?  

2 Corinthians 5:16

This means that the Messiah has already come in the flesh and has returned to G-d. He was making the point that Y'shua reconciled us to G-d while He was in this life.  Much of that chapter as is the case with Romans 5: 1-10 is about reconciliation between G-d and man which Y'shua did while on earth.

Have a good day, Shlomo.  


I grew up in a total Jewish environment in New York where everything is available. But the Jewish community of Toledo is very nice altho it is small. So glad you found a good community in Toledo.

Ohioans are more friendly than New Yorkers but then middle America is much different than either the eastern or western states. I have been in back and forth across the US and have generally found southerners and those in the midwest to be very friendly. Pittsburghers are friendly people too. Helpful to visitors and won't run you down in an intersection. NYC folks need to be very nimble of foot in order to stay alive and I don't know how those messengers on bicycles manage to escape with their lives in NYC traffic! (I STILL love to visit Manhattan though. Nothing quite so neat as Time's Square at night with all those lights!

I find that midWesterners are more friendly than in other areas; also may hold true for the South.

Thanks for your response.

To: suzanneu@aol.com
From: "Shlomoh Sherman" <kingsolnew@yahoo.com>  
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:53:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [exorthodoxjews] My response to EXPELLED

Suzanne wrote: Watch this trailer! Pretty short, but very good. Ben Stein

Indeed I watched the trailer. I must tell you that I am very unimpressed. To me, Mr Stein represents the worst that is happening to America in the 21st century. Several months ago, I wrote to him about a rant of his that was completely ridiculous.
He should stick to show business, not politics. Rather than address Stein, I can address some of the issues he raised. Ever since the late 90s, America has been drifting into an era of what can only be described as "neo-forced baptism". What do I mean? America, unlike Euope, was founded on the idea that religion is not to be part of the socio-political agenda of the governments, national and local. And there is to be no faith test in order to attain office.What has happened? In Europe ironially, people have made their countries in accordance with OUR Constitution. Here, religion, specifically Christian religion, has been increasingly making inroads in areas in which it does not belong, and politicians DO have to PROVE their faith in order to be elected.
At the same time that science is being attacked, Christians are weeping alligator tears that there is a war on their religion, or a war on Christmas, or whatever. But in the film, JESUS CAMP, a 9 year old girl stands up and says that the Church was right to make Galileo recant.
OK. So say you don't believe in empirical evidence because, as Woody Allen has one of the characters in his film CRIMES AND MISDEMENORS say, "If I have to choose between God and the truth, I choose God." Jesus said that the truth would make people free. But people don't necessarily want the truth because, as they say, the truth hurts.
It's not even about whether the universe was made by design or just "happened" on its own. It's about what the majority of Americans seem to want, - the acceptance of a Person who displays very bad traits. ---- A very old story from the old country from where my parents hail. A Jew goes to a Jewish tailor with some material. He asks the tailor to make a suit from the material. When the tailor tells him that the suit will take at least a month to make, maybe longer,the Jew complains, "What? Why it only took HASHEM 6 days to make the world," The tailor replies, What? You want me to do as lousey a job as he did?" Maybe only Jews get the humor but the story is to the point. The world can only be considered great if it is an accident. If it was planned, it's an abysmal failure. Even if Adam and Eve brought it low to its curent state, then the creation of Adam and Eve is an abysmal failure - because failure is built into the creation - UNLESS there is no design - then there is no desgn flaw. Sure Adam and Eve goofed up. Well then, let their descendants do better. Give them laws to do better. Don't add insult to injury by telling them to exterminate people of another ethnos just because they are sitting on prime property or because you don't like their religion. Don't tell people to take virginal girls and make them your sex slaves and kill everyone else in town. Don't tell people to kill a young lady because she can't bleed on her wedding night. For gods' sake, don't kill homos because gods made them want to suck. That's not helping Adam and Eve to do TIKUN OLAM, make the world a better place to live.
It's not about design. It's about making me pledge that this nation is under some deity more than any other nation. it's about Walmart and others like it rob the poor while raking in money that boldy proclaims, IN GOD WE TRUST. Corporations and the rich trust in MAMMON.
Ben Stein is a rich idiot who can't tell me a thing, especially that there is some nutty plot to persecute the "faithfull" who may be full of something other than faith.
"My mind is my own church", said Thomas Paine. Don't clutter it with propaganda.
This is the McCarthy Era CUBED! Worry about that. Worry about nonChristian military men being forced by their commanding officers to accept Christ.
I worry that mythology is encroaching up on my freedom, not about people SUPPOSEDLY being bullied for their belief. The followers of God have been bullying people for a long time. I am shocked that in the 21st century, the Scopes Monkey Trial is being replayed on a daily basis. Karl Marx had a point. The masses need opiates.

To: kingsolnew@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: My response to EXPELLED
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 20:01:24 -0400
From: suzanneu@aol.com  Add Mobile Alert  
Subject: Re: My response to EXPELLED

Suzanne wrote:
I think you are really biased against religion and against Christianity in general. Oh well. It is your right as a citizen here to believe or not believe. I disagree with you on a lot of your post, but then that is my right too.

Right on all counts. I once head a Buddhist friend say that if all religions were children playing in the schoolyard, Christianity would be the schoolyard bully and history does a good job of showing that.

Maybe you don't believe in satan either, I suppose. However if you did, you might have considered that satan attempts to ruin every good thing G-d does all the way back to Adam and Eve. Thus is it surprising that he tries to ruin it for true Christians who have been with us since 32 AD? Don't forget, true Christians were murdered in the Spanish Inquisition and in the holocaust and down through history by "the church" which is the false church. Jesus had a lot to say in Revelation about false religion.

On the other hand, there are plenty of really good and kind Christian people. Those are the REAL Christians, who do good deeds. Their faith does not concern me because, as a Jew, I don't care what their motivations are so long as they do good in the world. One decent person showing kindness is worth millions who try to save my soul from hell. Earth is more important to me than after earth.

I do understand why you say that. However, eternity lasts a long time. The here-and-now is here-and-now and will pass away. True Christians do good deeds out of their love for G-d and their desire to obey Him.

As to your point that I have rights to believe not believe, well once the messiah shows up, all my Constitional rights will be taken away. Ben Stein's point is that the educators who do not believe in Darwinism are losing their constitutional rights because they believe in creationism. Once you have a king, you don't need no steenking rights. The king will tell you what to do and not do so you don't have to bother thinking for yourself.

Hmmmm. But when reading Ezekiel from about chapter 40 onward, it says somehwhere that Torah will be taught. In Isaiah somewhere he mentions that people will live to be over 100 though some will die younger and from the text it appears that it will be due to their choices. So if that is the case, then people still will have free will. It will just be easier to see the blessings for living according to Torah rather than dealing with the consequences of transgressing the Law. Even today, though, Shlomo, there are plenty of people who "know better" but choose to do wrong despite the consequences they know they will face.

Have a good evening, Shlomo.

suzanneu@aol.com also wrote:

I attended a Seder in a church a week or so ago.  It was scheduled for Holy Thursday evening.  209 people came.  The pastor said they had a waiting list of people who wanted to come even on short notice.   Well, I am not surprised. :-D  If we read the book of Hosea, and some of the other prophets like Isaiah, it was foretold years ago that the House of Israel would be regathered.  Y'shua started regathering them Paul and James referred to them in the NT, and it will continue till Messiah comes, which should be in our lifetimes if the world events are any indication.

From: Shlomoh Sherman <kingsolnew@yahoo.com>
To: suzanneu@aol.com
Sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 2:24 pm
Subject: about our religions

One has to be carefull with end-time calculations. There may even be a scripture that warns against calculations. I am sure I read it but can't remember where. Can you describe the SEDER for me?
By the way, I just finished a book by an author named Harvey Cox called FIRE FROM HEAVEN. It is the story of Pentecostalism from the Azusa Street meeting till now. I really learned a lot about Pentecostalism from that. I have a friend who is Pentecostal. In 1993 I visited her in northern Louisiana and we went to herchurch. Then we also went to a Pentecostal church in Lubbock, Texas. In New York where I used to live, there were no white Pentecostal churches. But I have recently moved to the MidWest Bible Belt, and there are plenty around here. My girl-friend and I keep saying we are going to attend a service but we never find time to go. BTW, We just made friends with a young Pentecostal man who we are taking with us to an interfaith SEDER in the Toledo area. he is really excited about going. I hope you don't mind that I am sending her a copy of this. You may want to contact her. Her name is Elaine and she is a really good person.

I'd like to add a word about your reply to me that you don't "keep the TORAH" for brownie points. I thought that was cute. Seriously though, I am double-minded about gentiles who say they keep TORAH. I have known quite a few in my day so you are no new phenomenon to me. The object of Paul's religion and his message to the gentiles is summed up very well in his statement that "if you are circumcised, Christ profits you nothing."  

suzanneu@aol.com wrote:
I keep the Levitical Feasts to the best of my ability, keep Biblical kosher.  I keep Sabbath to the best of my ability.  I try always to obey  G-d.   

-----Original Message----- From: Shlomoh Sherman
To: suzanneu@aol.com
Sent: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 1:31 pm
Subject: Re: [exorthodoxjews] God was out to lunch again

Inteestingly enough, I am supposed to keep it and you are under no oblagation to keep it.
Well every Jew observes the TORAH to the best of her ability but in your case, I am not sure what that means since you get no credit for keeping any TORAH injunctions. Does Levitical Feasts imply Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles? And if so, how do you know how to keep it? I am asking this because you say that you keep Biblical KASHRUT which is not how KASHRUT is meant to be observed. Are you a 7th Day Adventist? Do you mean your sabbath is on Saturday? I'm curious.

suzanneu@aol.com wrote:
Hi there Shlomo,

Well, it is a rabbinic law that says we are under no obligation to keep it but the Torah says that there should be one law for the Jew and stranger among them both.  I realize that this was said while the Jews were in the land but Paul and the Apostles gave no leeway to gentile believers and they were way closer to Moses in history than we are now.  :-)    As to getting credit for keeping Torah as best I can:  Well, I don't do it to get brownie points ie credit with G-d.  I do it because I love Him and a child is to obey his or her parent!   The 10 Commandments don't say "Oh you can keep and do this if you feel like it."  They are not suggestions.  I wish everybody would observe/do them and we would have a safer world with need for far fewer jails.

No.  I am not a 7th Day Adventist.  I belong to the Assembly of G-d church---pentecostal.  I light the Sabbath lights and don't do work on Sabbath, the 7th day. I go to a church on Sunday. We have a seder here at home and I teach it at church and today I did a mini Messiah in the Passover presentation to an after school program at a church in Pittsburgh.  20+ kids from 6 to 16 were in attendance plus some parents.   I observe Shavuos ON Shavuos not when the church says it is Pentecost Sunday.  For Sukkot, it is a rememberance that Y'shua was born at that time.  Even the stables in the manger sets look a lot like little sukkahs.  I don't build a sukkah yet but may this fall.  I usually go to someone's house that has one.  It is way too cold here in October to sleep out in a sukkah but it is do-able to have a barbecue outside and eat there.  I do my best for all the other Feasts.  I light a Hanukkiah, so does my eldest daughter for her children.   How do I know how to keep the Feasts?  I read a lot and I have Jewish friends who have told me how it is done.   also www.ffoz.org

At this point I don't worry about separating meat and milk since we rarely have a dinner where dairy is used anyway and the other meals are not meat meals.  I don't have separate dishes, sinks, pots, refrigerators and dishwashers.  Can't right now. I don't live in an area where there are kosher stores.  I must drive 20+ miles to get to one.  Thurs I have a mtg nearby a kosher store so I will go and get the meat for the month. 


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