I'm Just A Pharisee:
Correspondence Between Shlomoh And Friends

February, 2004


From: Grace Harris
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Shlo:

This song was written by a fundamentalist friend of mine back in my Alpha Delta Chi days. She is a good example of how contemporary Chrisitians identify THEMSELVES with the Jews in the gospels, as sinners in need of a savior, as religious folk who can over-do it, as those responsible for the death of Christ. You have to read the WHOLE SONG to get the context -- its the second set that shows you what you need to see.

The people were blinded by hatred and fear
They didn't want him and they wouldn't hear
of the wisdom he was telling
and traditions dispelling
They couldn't have loose
a man who spoke truth

O Jerusalem
How I do love thee
I would have gathered your children to me
But you killed my prophets and you stone my preachers
and the people that I love will crucify me

Well I'm just a pharisee in a modern disguise
I'm still inflicting the same hate and lies
That he bled and died for
and cried through the night for
Knowing the cost
Still he stayed on the cross

O my People [Christians]
How I do love thee
I would have gathered your children to me
But you're killing my prophets and you stone my preachers
and the people that I love still crucify me


From: "King Solomon" [kingsolnew@yahoo.com]
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

: Well I'm just a pharisee in a modern disguise
: I'm still inflicting the same hate and lies

This poem sounds pretty on the face of it. This again is a case of a Christian being antisemitic without knowing it.

I once saw an article in the New York Daily News written by Jimmy Breslin in which he said that if Jesus were to come back today, "he would see that the Pharisees had won". I wrote Breslin a letter in which I told him that with these words, he had insulted the Jewish citizens of New York and Jews everywhere. He never answered my letter and I did not expect that he would.

Unfortunately I wrote this letter long before there was an internet and so I don't have a copy of it. The gist of it is that so many "Jewish" words and phrases have taken on a negative connotation based on readings of Christian scriptures.

Deke remarked a few days ago that Gibson really does not care that his film will generate antisemtism. It's true, and the kind of antisemitism it will generate will be a mindless dumb antisemtism, with people going about the streets and saying that the Pharisees were evil and they won't even realize that they are speaking against the revered religious leadership of a religion not their own.

I probably could be a modern Pharisee - but absolutely NOT in disguise.


From: Deke Barker
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Shlomoh:

Good example: "Pharisees", as now understood by legitimate Bible scholars, Xian and Jewish alike, were nothing like they were often portrayed in the NT. If anything, Jesus was more likely to get a sympathetic response from Pharisees than from any other group. If he held discussions and debates with them, as seems likely, they were probably along the lines of the debates between beth Shammai and beth Hillel. The anger that appears in the NT gospels was almost certainly a case of reading contemporary (ca. 70-100 CE) events back into history (ca. 30 CE).

But that doesn't make much difference to most Xians, who will never learn these facts because they are the product of critical scholarship. Unfortunately, the more *POPULAR* Xian groups prefer to avoid critical scholarship due to too many results that they find inconvenient.


From: Grace Harris
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Deke! Long ago Shlo mailed me an excellent book called Jesus the Pharisee. It really helped me see Jesus in terms of a rabbi speaking out for the views of Bet Hillel against Bet Shammai which during those few years DID rule the Sanhedrin. That most evangelicals don't make the distinction is simply because they aren't scholars -- give them a break. The point I made to Shlo, which still stands, is that contemporary Christians identify themselves with the Jews in the Bible, even those Pharisees who hated Jesus.


From: Deke Barker
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Grace:

I think that people who give serious thought to their religious beliefs, especially people who are willing to engage in the sorts of discussions that occasionally occur here, are unlikely to be swayed toward anti-Semitism by a film.

I have no such confidence with most people, especially those aligned with ultra-conservative religious groups. Fundamentalists -- the people targeted by Gibson in marketing and PR -- do not have a good record of tolerance. According to most studies of fundamentalism, "intolerance" is one of defining characteristics of fundamentalist religious groups.

You can find your songs because you and Scott and Jim are not alone. First, there are other conservative Xians who are thoughtful. Lots of them. Second, there are ecumenically-minded Jews and non-conservative Xians who write songs, too.

Why no anti-Semitic songs? Public anti-Semitism is like public racism. It is frowned upon by polite society. You don't hear about Whites writing songs about "niggers", either.


From: Deke Barker
Date: Friday, March 05, 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Grace:

I do give most evangelicals a break, even fundamentalists. (Some evangelicals are as committed to critical scholarship as I am.) What I do *NOT* tolerate is willful ignorance. And when it comes to evangelical leaders, on matters such as this, they are either guilty of willful ignorance or the most obscene, un-Xian lies.

And with all due respect, I think you are being seriously naive when you state that "contemporary Christians identify themselves with the Jews in the Bible, even those Pharisees who [allegedly] hated Jesus".

*YOU* may see things this way. *JIM* may see things this way. *SCOTT* may see things this way. That's the kind of people you are. But I know a whole lot of Xians of all stripes, and know of *NONE* who regularly and consciously "identify themselves with the Jews in the Bible". More to the point, I know of very few who would even be capable of so doing, even though they may try (as you apparently do).

It's like all of the reported gore in "Passion". According to people who have seen the film, including some here, the depictions of Jesus' suffering is an overwhelming religious experience. Unfortunately, it's not accurate. It *CAN'T* be accurate unless the audience is allowed to perceive the context punishment in the ancient world, which of course would be difficult in a two-hour film. Few Xians (or Jews, for that matter) have any reasonable understanding of the context -- of punishment or anything els e -- in the Near East or the Roman Empire in the 1st century CE. What is horrifying to us probably wasn't nearly so bothersome to the Jews or anyone else of the period. (Yes, the crucifixion was not a Jewish practice, but *MOST* of the violence, as I understand the film, came before the crucifixion itself.)


From: Grace Harris
Date: Friday, March 5, 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

So you just think it is just a bizarre freak of statistics that Jim and Scott and I (Ruth hasn't chimed in that I can remember) all identify with the Jews? Why is it that I can find songs where Christians identify with Jews, and can find absolutely nothing in recent mainstream Christian lyrics or literature that talks about Jews killing Christ? In short, at least I can supply evidence for my position, Deke.

Grace


From: "King Solomon" [kingsolnew@yahoo.com]
Date: Fri, Mar 5, 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

I can tell you that I have several gentile friends who lately tell me that it kills Christians that they know when Jesus's Jewishness is brought to mind. I saw on CNN, in a panel discussion of the Gibson film, one conservative woman who was cursing the "secular elite" for condemning the film. When another person said that Jesus was born, lived, and died a Jew, you could see the anger on her face. She just shut up.

When I met this young man last night that I was telling you about - the kid from Louisiana, he was in an going witnessing with a woman next to me. My friend Tony, from a Baptist background but now backslidden, was going ape and telling me he wished the kid would stop. I engaged the young man and talked to him about Jewishness and Jesus' Jewishness in particular. The kid was very uncomfortable. Then Tony asks him if he believes Jesus was Jewish. He says yes, he does. So Tony asks him, so then if you follow him, why aren't you a Jew. after several minutes of fumfering, the kid says he is a Jew because he is a child of Abraham. So I say to him - no you ain't a Jew. The kid is not sure about what a Jew is really. He says well there are Israelites and then there are Jews by religion. The Israelites are the original Jews. I ask him what he means. he says well if someone converts, he is of the Jewish religion. So I say - then you are in the dark.

The convert is a Jew just the same as I am, and what the heck is an "original" Jew? He just looks as me. I tell him, I am a Jew and there is no such thing as the "physical seed of Abraham". That's a made up racist phrase that Paul used. There are no ORIGINAL Jews and no original anybody. And a Jew by Israelite-ness and a Jew by religion is the same thing - whether he  was born or made.

Then I say to him - I'll tell you why you are not a Jew. Because the Jews say you are not one. Amazingly he seems to agree.

Here is a categorical statement. Throughout history and today, 99 and 99/100 percent of Christians DO NOT identify with Jews. They may identify with mythical noble proto-christians like Moses or Isaiah -but not with live human beings.

Most Christians are UNCOMFORTABLE with Jesus being a Jew - or as one Catholic woman jokingly told me, Yeah Jesus and the disciples were all Jews - but then they wized up and converted to Catholicism! Man! Even I had to laugh!


From: Jim Massey
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Deke's reply reminds me of the discussions I had with my soon-to-be-ex-wife. We would be talking about something like affirmative action, for example, and she would say something like, "Everybody's still racist, just because we don't have white robes and go lynching people doesn't prove anything, you know you're still racist," when she was always the one bringing up race! (When I was taking Organizational Behavior back when I went for my MBA, in a class discussion I said that I thought women could learn a lot about how to be corporate leaders from watching Condoleeza Rice, and a black man in the class interrupted the discussion to thank me for not pointing out that she was black--I hadn't even thought of it.)

Just because there's no evidence that I beat my kids doesn't mean I don't beat my kids, or would beat my kids if it weren't for the spanking police? (Don't think I am kidding with this:  concerning the prayer request I posted yesterday, it seems that three of my friend's children are screaming abuse to the authorities when there is no evidence, only because they are afraid they will have to go back to a Christian home where they aren't allowed to screw and smoke dope and run around all hours of the night, but since we all know that white Christian single moms beat their children, she cannot see her children, and had to retain an expensive lawyer on four hour's notice just to keep from having the DCF nazis roll her into jail.  Don't stop praying.)  I am sick to death of being accused of things I do not do just because I am supposed to do them because some blankhole did a "study" that "proves" that "people like me" would do them if people like them weren't constantly making sure we didn't!

I'll make a deal with you:  let us keep our ONE MOVIE and we'll let you keep your six years of Sex in the City and your nine years of fornicating Friends and your Last Temptation of Christ which was far less accurate than the Passion and every movie like Cape Fear that more specifically fans the flames of anti-Christianity far more vehemently than any possible anti-Semitism in a movie that shows how Christ suffered and died for our sins. OK?


From: Deke Barker
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004
Subject: Re: [new46] I'm just a pharisee

Jim:

I don't see the relevance of your comments. In the first place, I didn't accuse *YOU* of anything. In fact, I specifically *EXCLUDED* you, along with Grace and Scott.

I especially don't see the relevance of your comment about racism. The only comment I made relative to racism was an analogy. Even ignoring the strong correlation between anti-Semitism and racism, wouldn't you agree that relating an absence of anti-Semitic songs to an absence of racist songs is rather apt?

We have movie ratings because some films are deemed by society to be inappropriate for children. And yet we allowed Dani to watch some R-rated films when she was as young as ten. Why? Because in our judgment she could handle them, at least with her parents providing a running commentary. But we'd *NEVER* take her to such a film at a theater. On matters like good judgment and interpretation of context (sophistication), kids have a poor record. They need help, and sometimes they need censorship.

It's the same thing here.

When it comes to matters like tolerance, fundamentalists have a poor record; that's a historical fact, and recent surveys show no great change. That doesn't mean that all or even most fundamentalists are closet anti-Semites, any more than an R-rating means all or most 15-year olds are too immature to see the film. It just means that it's not wise to make a film that distorts history in a way that has the potential to inflame passions, and then market that film specifically to those people most likely to get inflamed.

I must say, you certainly closed on a roll. I haven't accused *YOU* of anything, contrary to your claims. And now you are accusing me of things that are absolutely untrue:

"Sex and the City": I believe I saw part of two or three episodes, several years ago.

"Friends": I may have seen 2-3 minutes of a couple of episodes, but even less than "Sex and the City".

"Cape Fear": I have never seen it.

"Last Temptation of Christ": I have never seen it, though I will probably watch it sometime. However, *UNLIKE GIBSON'S "PASSION"*, Scorsese made absolutely no claims to be faithful to the letter of the gospels. Scorsese acknowledged up front that he was using a fanciful Greek novel as the basis for his story. IMO, it's a bit disingenuous to compare an admittedly-fictional "Last Temptation... " to an allegedly-historical "Passion... "


From: Ruth Powers
Date: Sat, Mar 6, 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

I'm not sure just what you mean by identify. I will tell you this, though. At one point in my 'search' I seriously considered conversion to Judaism. I became good friends with a rabbi and his family in Memphis. It is strange, but he told me that I needed to search out the roots of the religous tradition I was born into before I converted to another one. It was, in fact, his influence that led me back to Catholicism.


From: Deke Barker
Date: Sat, Mar 6, 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Ruth:

If I may inject a thought....

A number of conservative Xian reviewers of "Passion.... ", reacting to concerns among Jewish, mainline Protestant, and Roman Catholic leaders, have claimed that the film caused people to "identify with the Jews" in the film and that it made clear that "all of us are responsible" for Jesus' crucifixion.

Yet I have not seen *ONE* description of the film, even by conservative Xian commentators, which suggests *ANYTHING* in that film that would cause people to identify with the Jews.

I could be wrong. Maybe the film does give many or most viewers warm feelings toward Jews. But I rather suspect that what we are hearing is programmed defense. Jews are concerned about the film promoting anti-Semitism, so fundamentalist Xian spokespeople say, "Oh no, it's made us closer to Jews."

People like Grace and Jim and Scott (and you?) probably have a heightened awareness of the concerns of others. Perhaps you went to the film and filtered it through your own relatively-tolerant belief systems. Since you already reject the idea that Jesus' "blood" is on Jewish hands forever, and because you may be somewhat knowledgeable about first century Palestine, what you get from the film relative to Jewish responsibility may be quite different from what other people get out of the film.

I'm speculating, of course. But I do have problems believing that a group (fundamentalist Xians) with a long history of antipathy toward Jews have all of a sudden gone soft in their attitudes. Yes, they support the Israelis against the Arabs, but that's largely a function of an even greater dislike of Islam than of Judaism, and a function of fundamentalist millenarianism that puts great emphasis on an apocalyptic event centered in Palestine. I have seen little or nothing in survey data that would suggest any real lessening of their antipathy toward Jews in general.


From: Jim Massey
Date: Sat, Mar 6, 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Maybe it's because it isn't a film about "the Jews." It is a film about Jews (and Roman soldiers), and, surprise surprise, some Jewish characters in the story act, think, speak, and respond differently than others. To Christians who don't know a thing about the Jewish roots of Christianity, this movie can help make them closer to Jews. While you cringe in fear of a return to the Inquisition, the rest of us are barrelling forward to the apocalypse, where Jews and Christians stand together against the final demonic empire--whether it happens in my lifetime ro not for 10,000 years is of no concern.

Also, while it might be that unsaved people are flocking to the altar after seeing this movie, I suspect that it is a work of art that speaks most eloquently to those who already have given themselves to Christ and want, in Paul's words, to know Him more, and the fellowship of his sufferings.

"Programmed defense"? Spare me. You couldn't program evangelical Christians to agree on the Biblically correct angle of a pew seat, much less on a set of talking points to go rushing to the media with. Evangelicals are not a bunch of sheep: they are a fiercely independent bunch, with most pastors feeling like they are herding cats rather than sheep, and most evangelical denominational leaders feeling the same way about the pastors under them.


From: Grace Harris
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Gosh Deke. Shlo at least I can understand given the history of persecution Jews have undergone. BUT YOU? Look, the fact that Jews and Romans were there is incidental. Had Jesus been born among Eskimos, he would have been killed by Eskimos. If he had been born in the US, he would have been killed by Americans. He was killed by HUMAN BEINGS. Period! End of story. For Shlo's sake, it is worth trying to free him from his terrible fears since here and now there is no longer any of that danger. But for you? Stop wasting your time on who killed Jesus when you know right well the only important question is WHY he chose to die.


From: Deke Barker
Date: Tue, Mar 9 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Grace:

I think you're reading too fast. *I* agree that the ethnicity was, in a sense, incidental (though it's hard to separate Xianity from its antecedents). And I agree that the "why" is the key.

But how I understand things isn't the issue, is it? Aren't we discussing how *OTHERS* are likely to relate to the film, what *OTHERS* are likely to get from it?

I don't think Shlomoh's Jewish friends were particularly concerned about Shlo' seeing it. And I don't think my Jewish friends would be particularly concerned about my seeing it. But lots of people --including a lot of Xians -- are very concerned about what many evangelical Xians will get from the film. That's because the film's creator has a family background of anti-Semitism; because he has a religious allegiance to traditionalist Catholicism when Catholic tradition is strongly anti-Semitic; because he marketed the film in a way designed to provoke Jewish concerns; and because his target audience has a long record of intolerance, specifically for Jews.

When you consider that a recent president of the Southern Baptist Convention stated openly and without apology that all Jews who didn't convert were going to hell, I would say that it is *MOST* unlikely that Southern Baptists will readily identify with Jews as a result of "Passion... " Most unlikely indeed.


From: Grace Harris
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

My point, Deke, is that this was not always the case. There was a time when there WERE songs about niggers and tirades about christ-killers. And there is a reason such things aren't around anymore -- the culture, including the Christian subculture, has changed. That's why I can find current evidence to support my case, and you can find none to support yours.


From: Deke Barker
Date: Tue, Mar 9 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Grace:

Yes, our culture has changed. We still have a lot of discrimination, but much less than we used to, and we don't say "nigger" or "kike" in public any more. That *IS* progress. That *ISN'T* Paradise.

Otherwise, you've lost me. What "evidence" are you talking about?

Direct evidence that the film is promoting anti-Semitism? There's some anecdotal evidence -- see the hate mail that critics get accusing them of being Jews, or the church billboard (in Nevada?) saying that Jews killed Jesus -- but it's a bit early for hard evidence, don't you think?

Direct evidence that most Xians do or don't "identify with Jews" when watching the film? Again, it's far too early for that.

Direct evidence that fundamentalists have a long and unbroken history of intolerance? I probably have a couple of dozen books that deal directly, tangentially, or inferentially -- but in any case substantively -- with fundamentalist intolerance, and they all say the same thing. Nearly all are academic studies based in whole or in large part on survey research. These books date from the late 1960s to about 2000, and their studies date from the 1940s or early 1950s to (probably) 1999 or 2000. The studies are consistent. The evidence is overwhelming.

I find it rather strange that this idea that fundamentalist Xians would or even could "identify with Jews" should crop up all of a sudden. I've never heard of it before beyond Jews for Jesus. It's certainly not a theme in mainline Protestant denominations, nor have I heard of it relative to Roman Catholics. And in my experience, backed up by the studies mentioned above, the typical fundamentalist is more likely to consider Jews to be the spawn of Satan than to identify with them. That it should arise now in defense of "Passion... " is most strange. So very strange.

IMO, the idea that traditionalist Xians would identify with Jews strikes me either as a convenient rationalization or as wishful (though sincere) thinking on the part of traditionalists who are sensitive to Jewish concerns.


From: Deke Barker
Date: Tue, Mar 9 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Grace:

???

Grace. Please. Read the thread again.

What in God's name made you think that I didn't understand what Jim was saying? What did you think I was responding to?

I pointed out that what Jim was saying was bull, that Jim's analogy was full of shit, that *JIM* was pulling what he claims his wife always pulls. Instead of dealing with the issue at hand, he attacked a perfectly appropriate analogy as if I were mentioning something off-topic in order to attack him. Why didn't he respond to the issue? What does his wife's off-the-wall changes of subject have to do with what I wrote?

I wasn't bringing up something that was off-topic. I was using a very appropriate analogy myself. Can you think of a better one? We're dealing with anti-Semitism, a form of intolerance with which we are all familiar, not Jim's marriage or the weather in Montana. I suppose I could have used an analogy based upon religion (Shiites v Sunnis?), but it seemed like one related to racism in America was more appropriate to the average American.

Moreover, I stated it as a fact and went on. I had no interest in discussing racism, nor did I mention it beyond that analogy.

IMO, you were blinded by your own allegiances and by the smoke Jim was blowing.


From: Deke Barker
Date: Tue, Mar 9 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Grace:

I intended to mention one additional point.

No, there is no *HARD* evidence supporting my contention that most conservative Xians viewing "Passion... " will *NOT* come away identifying with Jews. However, the accumulation of indirect evidence (long and unbroken history of high levels of intolerance, specifically anti-Semitism) and the recent anecdotal evidence, some of which I mentioned, strongly support the *EDUCATED INFERENCE* that conservative Xians are unlikely to come away from the film with warm feelings toward Jews.


From: Grace Harris
Date: Wed, Mar 10 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

What evidence? I'm sorry, I thought you were following the thread. Please note the subject header "I'm just a Pharisee". It's the title of the song I posted. The lyrics are evidence supporting my point that Christian culture has now changed to the point where Christians, including Evangelicals, tend to identify themselves with the Jews in the narratives of scriptures. I posted several different items of this nature off the top of my head, and noted that I couldn't come up with one single song or sermon that stated Jews were Christ killers.

It's part of my effort to sooth Shlo's fears. I understand completely why he is afraid. However, that danger no longer exists in the US except in a few fringe loon groups like skin heads and schizophrenics. I would like, if I can, to lift that fear from his heart.


From: Deke Barker
Date: Wed, Mar 10 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Grace:

No, it doesn't mean much, if anything. IMO, of course.

OTOH, I agree that there has been a culture shift. Culture is always shifting, and in the last 100 years the shifts have been practically supersonic.

The studies I've mentioned show that the entire society has become more tolerant in recent years, certainly of minorities like African-Americans, Jews, and Hispanics.

But this doesn't really change the facts. Yes, fundamentalists have become more tolerant in the past few decades, just like everyone else. But the data has remained stable relative to the rest of society, meaning that *RELATIVE* intolerance has not diminished at all.

Is there less anti-Semitism and racism and anti-Papism and so forth? Yes.

Is it intolerance still common and substantial. Yes.

As for people buying Evangelical music.... people buy CDs. Singles aren't too popular. And they often buy CDs in spite of the fact that they don't like one or more songs.

Also, people often buy music they don't like at all. I have a small collection of "disco" music. I hate disco music. But Darcy and I *LOVE* dancing to it. By contrast, I have a ton of Dylan, but I can't recall dancing to it often.


From: Grace Harris
Date: Wed, Mar 10 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Deke you are mixing apples with oranges. Christians who say that non-Christians are going to hell are not anti-Semitic. The entire rest of your argument rests upon a past culture which no longer exists. Your efforts would be better spent communicating that change to those who are afraid than to feed their fears.


From: Deke Barker
Date: Wed, Mar 10 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Grace:

You mean, bunches of evangelical Xians are "identifying with" people they think are going to hell?

I find that a bit hard to believe.

And no, that statement is not -- in and of itself -- anti-Semitic. I suspect that the person who made it *IS* anti-Semitic; I don't know for sure. But I didn't say the statement was anti-Semitic, did I?

What I intended to imply is that people who share that belief, that all Jews who don't convert will go to hell, are unlikely to relate to or otherwise identify with Jews who haven't converted.


From: Jim Massey
Date: Wed, Mar 10 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Evangelicals who have thought about the issue conclude that people fall into one of three camps: Israel, the church, and everyone else. God has a covenant which each group, and while that covenant differs for each group, there are some aspects that are held in common. Three examples:
1) Between Israel and the church, there is the connection with God that is not had by everyone else, and so there is an identification.
2) Between Israel and everyone else, there is the prospect of condemnation outside of Christ that is not had by the church, and so there is an identification.
3) Among all three groups, there is the sin that causes Christ to be tortured and crucified, and so there is an identification: as someone else here put it, if Christ had been born in Japan, it would have been the Japanese who crucified Him, and Christians would identify themselves with the Japanese as complicit in Christ's death, even though the Japanese as Buddhists would be going to hell.

P.S. In Ruben's famous *Elevation of the Cross*, Rubens paints himself as one of the Roman soldiers helping to raise the cross, along with other soldiers, Jewish leaders, and general rabble. This is not a new idea.


From: Deke Barker
Date: Wed, Mar 10 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Jim:

I realize that it is not a new idea. And I realize that it is hardly foreign to fundamentalist Xians.

What I do *NOT* realize, what I great difficulty in believing, is that this idea is *COMMON* among fundamentalist Xians.


From: Grace Harris
Date: Wed, Mar 11 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

And Shlo, remember what Ruthie wrote, that it was standard pre-Vat II practice that if she did something wrong she was told that was another thorn in Jesus' brow.

Why you might say is this: This is the earliest, oldest tradition. When anti-semitism became common, apparently during the years after Arianism was stifled, it existed alongside the earlier traidition. Now that anti-semitism has been condemned and marginalized, we see that the earlier tradition is still there, has always been there, and has risen to the surface.


From: Grace Harris
Date: Wed, Mar 11 2004
Subject: I'm just a pharisee

Do bunches of Christians identify with sinners in need of salvation? Hell yes!!! I don't know that everyone who yelled "crucify him" that day went to hell, do you?

"Somehow I think I'd crucify him ... I'm talking about my sweet Lord Jesus..."

John Michael Talbot


Grace Harris converted to Roman Catholicism from Holiness Religion over 20 years ago.

Deke Barker is a member of the church of The Disciples Of Christ.

Ruth Powers is a Roman Catholic

Jim Massey is a Lutheran


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